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Water hoses
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| Peter Bell |
Posted on 06-02-2007 15:28
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Super Administrator
Posts: 97
Joined: 01.08.06
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[Moved from the Water Cards thread]
We understand that several marinas further south have removed hoses from their water dispensing points because of the possibility of bacterial build-up. The long lengths of hoses full of water sit around in the sun and bacteria can build up in them. We do sterilise our hoses every so often but it is always possible that some obnoxious gremlin could go from the marina hose to a water-tank on board . The other marinas have removed their hoses so they cannot be sued for negligence etc. The water will still be there, but boat owners will have to use their own hoses to fill their tanks. It has been suggested that the marina office could and should hold a small stock of hoses in case a visitor comes without one. These would be sold, not lent or hired, so that the responsibility is not ours but the owners.
Views please.
Nick Faulkner |
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| oldestgit |
Posted on 06-02-2007 20:59
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Member
Posts: 24
Joined: 08.12.06
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Hi Nick:
I would appreciate you naming the marinas/clubs that you are talking about.
We sailed on the south coast for most of the summer and the following which we visited for generally more than 1 night all had water as I remember freely available mostly not on cards some had free electricity as part of the mooring facility and some again had broadband wi fi links some needed registering, a few were part of the Square Mile lot.
Shotley.
Levington
Ramsgate.
Dover
Eastbourne.
Brighton
Port Solent (Portsmouth)
East Cowes Marina
Cowes Yacht Haven
Port Hamble
Hamble Marina
Swanick Marina
And some I just can’t remember immediately but Water…….
We never had to beg, borrow or buy a hosepipe anywhere and as I remember none stated not for human consumption and no restrictions even on hoseing down the boat after salty windswept days in F6 and above.
While I don’t doubt you have marinas in mind I would appreciate you posting their names so as we can avoid them in the future and hopefully isolate them and not have RNSYC follow like lemmings….
(a personal view only)
Have Fun………… Peter |
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| Nick Faulkner |
Posted on 07-02-2007 11:05
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Member
Posts: 16
Joined: 08.11.06
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Hang on there Peter. I have no axe to grind and there are no major cost implications( just as long as we are not sued) so we are only discussing the matter.One of our officers was at an RYA meeting when this came up.
It is no use asking me which marinas are removing or are considering removing hoses....you are listing more marinas than I have ever been in....I just chase round plastic buoys off Pakefield...but it maybe the way things will go.
I suppose you could describe what I am talking about as hearsay but you will agree in this litigious Health & Safety conscious age there is a ring of truth about it.
It is not Club policy or intention to do away with our hoses at the moment but we are interested in finding out if our berth holders have any views or whether it is generally felt we are worrying without reason.
While on the subject of water and water cards I would like to explain that the decision to defer charging for cards was to defer "ad infinitum". In other words the possibility of charging is still there but there are no plans to bring it in right away and it will not be happening this year. The intention to repair and make good our water dispensing systems is to improve efficiency and economy and not to enable the Club to charge for cards as soon as we have done so.
Keep taking the BP tablets.
Best wishes
Nick |
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| oldestgit |
Posted on 07-02-2007 16:00
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Member
Posts: 24
Joined: 08.12.06
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Hi Nick:
What is with the “hang on Peter”?
I am sure you don’t have an axe to grind anymore than myself and it’s pleasing that you should air your views and request the views of others on such a forum, however I cant believe you only want brown nose replies, that just isn’t healthy…… AND….
You did say:
(We understand that several marinas further south have removed hoses)
I guess that’s “The Royal We” then?. It was and is surely a fair question in response to the above, if you know about or have information about any lets post it and find out who they are, surely it isn’t a secret or won’t be for long.
To give you my insight, I listed some that we had visited summer ’06. There are probably thousands of others out there who may well have gone down the route you suggest but I don’t know any (maybe other members can enlighten us) for it would be good to know ….Who?..
In short I guess you probably are worrying without reason. I would have guessed we are more lightly to be sued over someone tripping up in the car park access area for I am sure you are well aware that is a well travelled (no win no fee) cash cow.
Don’t know anything about BP tablets, BP is a petrol company to me, but if its anything like I think you might mean I prefer a good Rioja.
Have fun and keep those controversial posts coming…………… Peter |
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| oldestgit |
Posted on 07-02-2007 17:03
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Member
Posts: 24
Joined: 08.12.06
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Hi again Nick...
I have found one.....
Hafan Pwellheli,
North Wales
They had to remove all their pontoon water hoses. The villain in the piece....
Welsh Water. They threatened to fine them £5000 per hosepipe if not removed and their reason……. Yep, unspecified bacterial attack.
However!!!!
No other marina in the vicinity seems to have been targeted and they tell me they are in talks to have them returned????. So who knows?
I bet we will hear of some more over the next day or so.
Have fun…….Peter |
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| Nick Faulkner |
Posted on 07-02-2007 18:17
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Member
Posts: 16
Joined: 08.11.06
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We as in Management Committee. BP =Blood pressure Rioja= Better
But thanks for the evidence that we were not totally deluded.
Nick |
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| Peter Bell |
Posted on 08-02-2007 17:23
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Super Administrator
Posts: 97
Joined: 01.08.06
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Water Regulations Advisory Scheme: Information & Guidance Note No. 9-06-02, Issue 1, June 2006: "Information for the Operation of Plumbing Systems for the Supply of Water for Domestic Purposes to Boats in Marinas"
http://wras.co.uk...arinas.pdf
Edited by Peter Bell on 22-03-2007 13:25 |
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| Nick Faulkner |
Posted on 09-02-2007 17:03
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Member
Posts: 16
Joined: 08.11.06
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Thank you Peter Bell.....just when ...following Peter Lynch's message on water hoses.... I thought the Management Committee was wasting its time ralking about the removal of hoses that did not need to be removed our Webmaster has come up with authoritive evidence for the point I was raising.
This strange internet reference takes us to the WRAS ( Water Regulations Advisory Scheme) and their publication 9-06-02 dated June 2006 titled
"Information for Operating Plumbing Systems for the Supply of Water for Domestic Purposes to Boats in Marinas".
There is lot of information and a number of recommendations and instructions some of which refer to our type of operation and we will have to check we are complying in the relevant areas but for the sake of this discussion I will copy out what it says about water supply hoses:
*Hoses for use with mains-fed union tpas must not exceed 22mm internal diameter
*All hoses left unattended on bank sides and pontoons must be removed by marina staff.
*Hoses used by marina staff should be of the retractable lay-flat type ,removed and securely stored after use.
*Berth holders and visiting craft must provide their own hoses, preferably of the lay-flat type, to encourage removal after use.....
Now it does appear that the officer who brought the matter to our attention had grasped the essentials fairly accurately.
While ignorance is no proper defence in law having had the matter brought to our attention and then doing nothing about it would certainly make us culpable.
So it looks like those hoses will have to go. |
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| Peter Bell |
Posted on 09-02-2007 19:03
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Super Administrator
Posts: 97
Joined: 01.08.06
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Clearly this is something to be looked into further. But it's not just a problem for us, and unilateral action seems to me unwarranted at this stage. There are several organisations that this will be impacting on: (1) the RYA -- what is the Association for, if not for taking up these issues at national level on our behalf?; (2) the British Marine Federation, the national representative body for the marine leisure industry; (3) The Yacht Harbour Association (affiliated to the BMF). Shouldn't our first move be to find out how these bodies are responding? Also, we have many members involved in the Broads boating industry; what if anything is happening on our doorstep regarding this? |
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| oldestgit |
Posted on 09-02-2007 20:28
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Member
Posts: 24
Joined: 08.12.06
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I posted the hosepipe removal question Nationally or Internationally on YBW and after 2 days surprisingly I only have 3 recorded incidents of hose removal... and I feel they have best been summed up by one of the contributions as:
("ours removed in the summer under some pretext of directive from water co.
read as saving on water bill"
Its hard to disagree with that view especially when our committee appears to have eaten humble pie on the water card issue, and immediately afterwards says ok, lets look at removing the hoses then. Unsurprisingly that neatly circum navigates the water card payment issue with a “more than my jobs worth”……. Just blame those nasty PC water people????. Except that 99% of other marinas don’t appear to have adopted that view.
(Just an honest observation before the “BP” rises).
Time to take my sedative…. Now where did I put that bottle of plonk?
Have fun……….. Peter |
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| greg |
Posted on 09-02-2007 21:35
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Member
Posts: 24
Joined: 30.01.07
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Unfortunately in our risk averse society it comes as no surprise to find that there are rules about using permanant hosepipes. I am naturally dubious about the evidence that may or may not underpin this - after all just look at the Boat Safety Scheme.
That said, if there are rules we would want to be on a fairly firm footing before deciding to ignore them. Would it be an option to put disclaimer notices next to each water outlet? |
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| Nick Faulkner |
Posted on 10-02-2007 01:41
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Member
Posts: 16
Joined: 08.11.06
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I don't think we are looking to take unilateral action but this quango appear to have some knowledge and authority on the matter and it may be the other marinas have not got around to it ....yet.
Unfortunately I do not think disclaimers are adequate. When you put up a disclaimer you are admitting there might be a problem but the law will not let you wriggle out of it that easily...the person using the hose might not be able to read English....or even read! I just do not think we can get away with it.
The matter of the water cards and the matter of the hoses are two different problems. The only connection is they both involve water.
In the card case the Treasurer was hoping to recoup some of the costs we incur.
On the hose question we understand it is more hassle for everybody and we do not want to do if we can avoid it but we have to take a sensible attitude towards it. Nobody wants to be responsible for permiting noxious bacteria to be pumped into your tanks and Peter Lynch mentioned the fines Welsh Water were threatening for non-removal of hoses.
We can no longer say we are not aware of the potential problem and our insurers will not be happy if we ignore the matter. So suggestions on our approach to the matter are welcome but be rational.....Transmarine 2006 catalogue offered 15m lay-flat non-toxic hoses on a reel for £29.99...it is not a major investment and you might turn up late one night at a marina that has already removed its hoses but with a roll-up hose on board you are OK because you know you can refill your tanks.
Have a good weekend.
Nick |
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| Peter Bell |
Posted on 10-02-2007 09:34
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Super Administrator
Posts: 97
Joined: 01.08.06
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Suggestions that the hosepipe issue has been brought up consequent to the cafuffle* over water cards are, as Nick says, wide of the mark. The hose question came up in Cruising Committee last summer. We were looking at replacing the current hose-on-a-reel arrangement with a simpler, more robust, system (hose coiled and hung on a bracket) when the question of possibly having to dispense with hoses altogether was brought up. So it's been in the pipeline (!) for some considerable time.
Can't help pointing out that there'd be less scope for oldestgit-style suspicion if we had the benefit of those monthly summaries of committee business as suggested elsewhere ........
*http://www.worldw...w-ker1.htm
Edited by Peter Bell on 03-03-2007 08:21 |
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| Peter Bell |
Posted on 03-03-2007 08:19
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Super Administrator
Posts: 97
Joined: 01.08.06
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For info, Management Committee decided on Thursday 1 March to remove f/w hoses from pontoon service bollards. Fresh water will remain available free of charge, but boats must henceforth provide their own hose. During Marina Office hours, visitors without a suitable hose will be able to borrow one of a small number kept for the purpose*. MC also decided that, w.e.f. 1 April, there will be no smoking in the clubhouse. When details have been confirmed, I will be putting notice of both changes on the club websites.
Edit:
*This part of the proposal has now been dropped; instead, a small stock of hoses will be kept for sale to hose-less visitors wishing to buy them.
Edited by Peter Bell on 22-03-2007 21:36 |
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| Anthony Barber |
Posted on 29-03-2007 14:19
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Member
Posts: 6
Joined: 04.09.06
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Sorry I missed the beginning of this debate, but we came in a couple of days ago and experienced the problem at first hand. We ran out of water (new boat and just discovered that guage is optimistic). My first reponse on seeing the cut hoses was vandalism. I'm now aware of the 'discussion' that has been going on and still incline to that view! We carry a hose, but it was not long enough. I understand from Tim that no suitable hoses were available from any shops in the vicinity and that the office therefore did not have anything available. Quite apart from the appropriateness of removing the hoses at all, I find it absurd that such action has been taken before there is any reasonable alternative avalable!
I have now read the WRAS information and guidance notes. That is exactly what they are - guidance notes. The legal requirement is not to contaminate the public water supply. I understand that in-line double check valves have been fitted and that should take care of that in the unlikely event that the pressure in the water main drops below that in the hose AND the hose is in contaminated water. Those of us that have been cruising for any amount of time are well aware of the need to flush the hose a bit before filling our tanks and are well able to keep our own systems clean.
I find the whole business of removing the hoses absurd and is a complete over-reaction. What happened to common sense? Have we totally lost our bottle?! What's so great about jumping before we're pushed? Boating is not without its risks and we still all do that.
I suggest the hoses are renstated without delay. I shall now take my BP tablets, it being too early in the day for Rioja! |
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| greg |
Posted on 29-03-2007 21:27
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Member
Posts: 24
Joined: 30.01.07
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Well said Anthony, I have to say I agree with you entirely.
Leaving aside the arguments about whether or not the hoses actually need to be removed or not (and you can probably guess my view) I think that cutting the hoses was a tad premature and it serves only to further the sense that the views and feelings of members who moor their boats at the club have not been properly considered. Why it couldn't have waited untill after the Orient Express was distributed and sufficient time had elapsed to enable members to make alternative arrangements I don't know. |
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| Nick Faulkner |
Posted on 30-03-2007 10:56
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Member
Posts: 16
Joined: 08.11.06
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Obviously cutting the hoses before there was an alternative available was not the best move we have made.The intention had been to have a two pronged approach to the matter with new hoses available simultaneously with the removal.....please understand the decision was not made specifically to irritate the berth holders.....but the path to hell is paved with good intentions.
I have been speaking to WRAS and they say their recommendations provide the best way to comply with the legal requirements..... rather weaselly words but difficult to ignore.
I understand that we have the requisite check valves in place to prevent contaminated water going back into the mains...that is not the problem.
The problem is stagnant water actually in the hoses beyond the taps....not only are we not supposed to contaminate the public water supply but we are not supposed to allow potentially contaminated water to be put in your tanks. Most of you know you would have to flush some water through before filling your tank but modern legislation appears to be drafted to cope with a complete absence of common sense.
But having prematurely cut the hoses we do not seem to have surplus of that...sorry.
Nick |
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| greg |
Posted on 01-04-2007 08:47
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Member
Posts: 24
Joined: 30.01.07
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Nick,
Thanks for responding and for acknowledging that cutting the hoses wasn't the most appropriate course of action. It is appreciated. |
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| Peter Bell |
Posted on 01-04-2007 10:18
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Super Administrator
Posts: 97
Joined: 01.08.06
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Our EU partners are rather better than we British at finding ways to observe regulations they don't like without letting them interfere too much with what they do like. I'm told a lot of marinas on the continent have simply put notices on their stand pipes saying "Not potable". Everyone knows it's the same old water; and everybody continues to drink it; and everyone continues, as they always have, to judge for themselves, port of call by port of call, whether they need to drop a few puritabs into the tank just as a precaution. British philosophy is traditionally the "philosophy of commonsense"; we've come to a pretty pass when the rationalists over the water display more of it than us! 
Edited by Peter Bell on 01-04-2007 13:08 |
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| Francis Rutter |
Posted on 09-05-2007 08:25
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Member
Posts: 1
Joined: 08.05.07
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I have visited the Continent many times in the last few years:- France, Belgium, Germany and the Baltic. I very soon found that many of the marinas did not have water hoses. I always carried a water can so that I could fill up by carrying cans and putting it into the boat that way - very tedious, of course.
Eventually I came to marinas where the tap was actually only about 3 inches proud of the pontoon deck and were pointing upwards making it impossible to fill a can [notably St Valery-en-Caux]. So I bought a flat hose in France and have carried it since.
Incidentally, I am amazed at how water can disappear. I chartered a 43 footer in the Ionian last Autumn and was surprised to find that just two grand-daughters managed to use up the entire water supply in four days! |
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