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Water cards
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| Peter Bell |
Posted on 26-01-2007 19:43
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Super Administrator
Posts: 97
Joined: 01.08.06
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Iain Brockie wrote:
"I would like to know what the rest of the forum think of the clubs latest money making scheme. Charging 50p for each water card. One card does not go very far, so you need at least 2 which equals £1"
[Moved from the Shoutbox] |
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| Nick Faulkner |
Posted on 27-01-2007 10:56
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Member
Posts: 16
Joined: 08.11.06
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As with most things when you delve a little deeper there is a rational explanation for an action.
The Treasurer noted that our water charges went up by £2,000 during the Summer and correctly assumed that much of this increase in cost could be attributed to marina use. He felt that payment for water cards could cover this cost to the Club...each water card costs us about 11p plus the cost of the water at atbout 18p...say 29p per issue and then there is the maintenance of the facilities.
So you will see that it is hardly a "money making scheme" but merely one to get the users to pay for what they actually use.
Last year it was decided that as we give the cards away we obtained no benefit from having them and still had all the complication of the card readers to pay for we would think of another method of dispensing water while still controlling wastage.
At that time it was decided that as the readers went wrong we would not replace them but instead put in a push button tap system that would give a certain amount of water per push much like on showers in most sailing clubs. However nothing has happened on this scheme because we, so far, have been unable to find a push-button tap that could dispense enough... and anyway we had just bought another 10,000 water cards.
The Management Committee at their last meeting voted to charge for cards but as I commented at the time "In principle"... There are several other factors we have to consider. One of which is the unreliability of the card readers in our current dispensing system. Frequently they go wrong or do not dispense and ration ina reasonable way. Now while the cards are "free" most people do not care. They mumble and work round the problem but if they are actually paying for the water they might reasonablely expect the system to work properly. We cannot guarantee this at the moment and the arguments and problems that failure would create make it unlikely we will be rushing ahead with this "money making scheme".
It is good to know that members are taking an interest in the deliberations of the Management and Finance Committee. These discussions are for the sake of the Club as a whole and every penny generated or saved goes back into the funds for the benefit of every member.
Best Wishes for the new season
Nick Faulkner |
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| Lyn |
Posted on 27-01-2007 15:35
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Member
Posts: 20
Joined: 31.08.06
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Nick Faulkner wrote:
As with most things when you delve a little deeper there is a rational explanation for an action.
The Treasurer noted that our water charges went up by £2,000 during the Summer and correctly assumed that much of this increase in cost could be attributed to marina use. He felt that payment for water cards could cover this cost to the Club...each water card costs us about 11p plus the cost of the water at atbout 18p...say 29p per issue and then there is the maintenance of the facilities.
So you will see that it is hardly a "money making scheme" but merely one to get the users to pay for what they actually use.
Last year it was decided that as we give the cards away we obtained no benefit from having them and still had all the complication of the card readers to pay for we would think of another method of dispensing water while still controlling wastage.
At that time it was decided that as the readers went wrong we would not replace them but instead put in a push button tap system that would give a certain amount of water per push much like on showers in most sailing clubs. However nothing has happened on this scheme because we, so far, have been unable to find a push-button tap that could dispense enough... and anyway we had just bought another 10,000 water cards.
The Management Committee at their last meeting voted to charge for cards but as I commented at the time "In principle"... There are several other factors we have to consider. One of which is the unreliability of the card readers in our current dispensing system. Frequently they go wrong or do not dispense and ration ina reasonable way. Now while the cards are "free" most people do not care. They mumble and work round the problem but if they are actually paying for the water they might reasonablely expect the system to work properly. We cannot guarantee this at the moment and the arguments and problems that failure would create make it unlikely we will be rushing ahead with this "money making scheme".
It is good to know that members are taking an interest in the deliberations of the Management and Finance Committee. These discussions are for the sake of the Club as a whole and every penny generated or saved goes back into the funds for the benefit of every member.
Best Wishes for the new season
Nick Faulkner
The club has been charging 50p for water cards for the last two weeks. I was under the impression that the water was included in the mooring fees as are many of the members I have spoken too.
Your comments would be welcome. |
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| Peter Bell |
Posted on 27-01-2007 17:57
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Super Administrator
Posts: 97
Joined: 01.08.06
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Nick Faulkner wrote:
.... So you will see that it is hardly a "money making scheme" but merely one to get the users to pay for what they actually use.....
Would we be right to assume, then, that the power washer at the head of the slip would also be metered and charged at an equivalent rate? And what about charging for showers (and coin-op loos)? If we are introducing a principle here, of paying for what we use, shouldn't we apply it consistently! Why impose charging on one set of users and not others?
Edited by Peter Bell on 27-01-2007 19:43 |
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| Lyn |
Posted on 27-01-2007 18:54
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Member
Posts: 20
Joined: 31.08.06
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Nick Faulkner wrote:
The Treasurer noted that our water charges went up by £2,000 during the Summer and correctly assumed that much of this increase in cost could be attributed to marina use.
Could this water charge have had anything to do with the building work at the club for the past 12 months? |
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| Ray Griffin |
Posted on 28-01-2007 13:36
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Member
Posts: 5
Joined: 05.09.06
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Are we really going to have to pay for this ?
Last spring while washing down my boat as usual following a fishing trip I was approached by another member who was complaining I had left the hose running just simply wasting the water, he was understandably concerned since we were at the time being warned about water shortages.I explained that I could not stop the water as because the tap was broken it would continue until the card timed out.
Having enjoyed my boating that day It was disapointing to have my mood spoilt in this way.
I decided that rather than argue I would again report the malfunction of the water dispenser isolating tap ,I was told that nothing could be done as before the tap could be worked on the device needed checking for electrical safety? This tap was still broken in December when I last looked .
If the other taps in the Marina are also broken then combined a lot of water is being needlessly wasted.
I am not happy at all with this proposal as it is penalising some usage unfairly and unevenly (I very rarely use the showers for instance) whilst not addressing the overall problems including maintenance, as a member I expect some facilities to be included. If this goes ahead I will look at alternatives such as bringing the small amount of water I use for drinks etc with me and also installing a seawater washdown facility on the boat.
All of this makes club life less enjoyable and more like the rush and tear of everyday lfe.I do not enjoy paying to park my car when attending hospitals either. |
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| Nick Faulkner |
Posted on 29-01-2007 00:45
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Member
Posts: 16
Joined: 08.11.06
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Whoops...as those who have spoken to Mark Funnell will know I was not aware that the charging for water cards had got beyond the "talking about" stage.
I was incorrect in this and it does appear that we have been charging for these cards in the last few days.( Not all Management Committee decisions get acted upon with such alacrity!)
It is my opinion that this has to be discussed further because of several points.
One and this is one I mentioned in my earlier message and has been backed up by Ray Griffin's contribution...our current water dispensing system is too unreliable for us to be able to provide a fair service. I realise there is another point in Ray's letter about the diminishing quality of Club life and this brings a very interesting subject up and would be well worth following through.
All I would say on this at the moment is that the Club spent 60 years nearly going bust....it never quite made it. The life within the Club was very pleasant but there always a feeling that we were making merry before the collapse. This all changed with the marina and we started pushing forward and now the finances are in much better shape but it is still by only a thin margin our income stays ahead of rising costs. We try to manage in the most business-like and prudent way we can and that requires us to look at all ways of raising revenue.....but there is always to possibility of a downside due to the laws of unconsidered consequences.
One of these we have briefly discussed in committee during the arguments on this subject is one that Peter Bell has brought up.... if we are to charge for water there has to be an equitable arrangement for the use of the pressure washer at the top of the slip which is fair enough but I do not think we will be getting around to charging members and visitors for "spending a penny".
To answer Lyn's point the matter of water charges has little to do with the renovation but it does relate to another long running sore... the dreaded diesel charges. We were already expecting to be down on income because of revisions to the margins on diesel and that was before the government anounced the loss of red diesel. The fact is nobody has much idea of the long-term effect of these changes but the Treasurer was trying to prepare another small income stream to ensure we continue to keep ahead of costs while still continuing to improve facilities for members.
Water will come up again at the next Management Committee and we will have to go through the points raised but I would say that while I think the principle of the proposition is not unreasonable we will have to make some serious improvements in the quality of our delivery systems before we can charge for it on a fair basis.
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| Peter Bell |
Posted on 29-01-2007 04:35
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Super Administrator
Posts: 97
Joined: 01.08.06
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Nick, take a bow! Actually two bows! One for engaging in the debate with such good humour; second for the soundness of your original instincts on this issue!
My tongue-in-cheek aside about coin-op loos accompanies a serious point, namely that we should think very carefully before embracing the principle of "paying for what we use". There are many costs attached to different activities within the club to which this principle could be applied. For instance: our crane has to be powered, maintained and inspected for a safety certificate, all of which involve costs to the club; should we perhaps recoup these costs from members who use the crane (as well as charging users who aren't members)? Maybe we should; my point is merely that water cards are very much the thin end of a rather thick wedge.
I'm sure everyone realises the potential seriousness of the developments regarding red diesel, but alienating visiting yachtsmen by charging them for water surely cannot be part of a solution to that problem?
Edited by Peter Bell on 29-01-2007 17:06 |
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| iain brockie |
Posted on 30-01-2007 14:57
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Member
Posts: 11
Joined: 06.09.06
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I would have thought that with the mooring charges going up 5%this year, then that would have more than covered the fees for water . I also think that 18p for about 10 minutes of running water seems a bit excessive.
The Clubs decision to sell fuel at a higher price than even ABP, does seem counterproductive. If it was cheaper then more people would buy from the Club. The supermarkets work on the principle of "stack it high and sell it cheap" and nobody can deny Tesco's massive profits. Food for thought !!! |
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| greg |
Posted on 30-01-2007 21:13
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Member
Posts: 24
Joined: 30.01.07
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It is good to hear some of the rationale behind the decision - thanks Nick and thanks for entering the debate.
Might I suggest that a more effective communication policy to support decisions that affect club members might be useful? I think that openness and transparency is often the best policy and a lot of 'jumping to conclusions' would have been avoided had the real reasons behind the charge been understood.
I don't think that any of us object to paying an appropriate amount for any of the club's facilities and we would certainly not want the club to go bust. However, whilst recognising the challenges of making the books balance there is a sense that the business like approach, referred to by Nick, is making for an uncomfortable atmosphere in a place we like to relax with like minded friends.
Examples include diesel for members costing more than it does elsewhere, the introduction of water charges, the apparently arbitrary re-measuring of boats and being provided with a mooring contract for 2007/08 that on face value appears quite ‘user unfriendly’. I understand that the marina is seen, to some extent, as the financial saviour of the club but it is populated by club members, not customers and I do wonder if this factor is sometimes overlooked.
I would emphasise that we are very happy to ‘pay our way’ and to support the club financially but I do think that it should be equitable and that decisions that are made on our behalf should be communicated effectively.
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| Peter Bell |
Posted on 31-01-2007 02:09
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Super Administrator
Posts: 97
Joined: 01.08.06
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That (Greg's post) reads to me like a suitable "last word", at least for the time being; so I'm now closing this thread. If anyone feels strongly that it should stay open, please email or PM me.
Edited by Peter Bell on 31-01-2007 02:17 |
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| Peter Bell |
Posted on 04-02-2007 18:45
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Super Administrator
Posts: 97
Joined: 01.08.06
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Postscript:
At the February meeting of the Management Committee it was agreed to suspend charging for water cards pending upgrading of the marina fresh water system. The principle of charging for water remains in place. The upgrading of the system will now be given a higher priority.
Post-postscript:
Hi Peter
Thanks for adding the postscript on water-cards. However I think some further clarification is needed.
While in theory there is still the possibility of charging for water, this is unlikely to come anytime soon. We will be working on the dispensing methods, but that is primarily to cut down on waste and improve efficiency, not to enable us to return to charging in the very near future.
The Treasurer was only pointing out the obvious: if there is to be global warming in the future, water is going to be a precious and expensive commodity and sooner or later will have to be charged for. However in his 2007 budget, accepted at the same Management Committee meeting, no allowance was made for an income from water, so we are not expecting it and it ain't going to happen -- this year.
While still on the subject of water on the marina, there is another matter that has been up for discussion....and I want to state right away that in this matter the Club is not trying to withdraw services the berth holders already enjoy or to increase profits.
We understand that several marinas further south have removed hoses from their water dispensing points because of the possibility of bacterial build-up. The long lengths of hoses full of water sit around in the sun and bacteria can build up in them. We do sterilise our hoses every so often but it is always possible that some obnoxious gremlin could go from the marina hose to a water-tank on board . The other marinas have removed their hoses so they cannot be sued for negligence etc. The water will still be there, but boat owners will have to use their own hoses to fill their tanks. It has been suggested that the marina office could and should hold a small stock of hoses in case a visitor comes without one. These would be sold, not lent or hired, so that the responsibility is not ours but the owners.
Views please*.
Nick Faulkner
*I've started a new thread for this one --see "Water hoses" (Peter Bell)
Edited by Peter Bell on 06-02-2007 15:24 |
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